Curse

Phades · May 15, 2006, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

I hope you're talking about PvE. Because it doesn't sound like it. You attribute too much intelligence to the AI. Your "survive the spike and can turn on the assassin" logic is quite frankly, beyond me. Additionally, if you read closely, you would have seen that I have a low opinion of Assassins in PvE parties.

You can really do whatever you want to against the under level 20 mobs most of the time in any party. I am mostly referencing the post 20~24+ critters that have more health and armor than normal that makes the idea of popping in and dropping the critter rather assinine.

I dont know how many times in pve you encounter just 1 lone monster, but its a rather rare occurance that they come in seperated pairs of varied classes that arent relativly close together when fighting. You personally could be a remarkable puller catching them mid patrol and cause a kind of starburst around the target, but that is typically not the norm in pve settings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

Not really, no. I have my reservations about the profession, but they can frontload a hell of a lot of damage. And how is it silly to devote half your bar to your job ?

Why do it at all is a better question. You can have a ranger do the same thing from a distance while having many other support options and perform as well, if not better over time due to staying power and skills not required to be consecutive.

This falls under the premis of doing something all the time that gets echod further down the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

I have no idea what your point is, you picked two quotes out of my post and I'm not sure what you're trying to agree or disagree with. I find the whole idea of "assassinating" targets in PvE ridiculous but if people want to do it, they should at least do it in situations where it could be marginally more effective than another profession.

Rangers (collectivly) were doing it well before the assassin came into being, so i suppose thats where the appeal comes from. For a assassin to really pull its weight in a group it has to do more than just damage. The warrior tanks and does damage. A ranger disrupts and does damage. Necros and mesmers debuff and to a degree both counter actions made activly. Rits and eles are capable of damaging many enemies simultanously, while performing other utilities. Monks and rits are also capable of both healing and protecting the party as well. So you end up with the assassin, who many people build to do "just damage", which it isnt even the best at doing and accomplishes nothing else over time. In addition bad players also end up being a large energy sink or dying frequently due to how off tilt its defensive aspect is compared to the needs a melee combatant requires.

There are design fallacies within the profession, but that doesn't excuse player habits while they are used or percieved interpretations of what they should be doing. Knocking out one target can be rather meaningless in pve, if it causes the assailant to die or be dead weight waiting for the proper opportunity. In pvp similar trades are made like in chess for different reasons, but the premis of trading one character for another isnt new and usually doesn't involve mutual death. Its just a matter of weighing what is more important, in terms of actions able to be executed by the individual.

Beat_Go_Stick · May 15, 2006, 10:18 PM // 22:18

It's not what the Assassin does that's unique. Hell, you can make pretty much any class into one that does a lot of damage in a short amount of time. It's the how of it that makes Assassins new and useful.

Here's a very simplified version of generic class roles.

Warrior - A high dps combined with Heavy armor to be the constant pressure on the enemy.
Ranger - Interruption combined with poison (condition spreading) and a decent dps through use of a ranged weapon and spirits.
Necro - Generally used these days as Minion Master, Spiteful Spirit, and/or well-battery cookie-cut team assisting builds (any other types of necros are automatically rejected from the majority of groups).
Mesmer - Interruption, control, and damage...Mesmers still have the most freedom of builds in PvE because the "most helpful" build has yet to be defined.
Elementalist - Direct damage through spikes, damage control using wards, and crowd control withAoE nukes. Theoretically, they can have the highest dps in the game.
Monk - Damage control. One way or another, damage control.
Ritualist - Role not entirely defined yet but it seems like they are versatile like the Necromancer and Mesmer, able to spec for Healing and Protection assistance or Direct Damage and Special Affects. This class has serious potential, imo.
Assassin - A very high dps spike with a cool-down. Able to unleash their combos (which apply any and all conditions in the game) quickly and on command, they are opposite of the Warrior, who must build up to his special abilities.

So, what to get from all this? These roles are very generic and easy to go above and beyond if your group has any sort of imagination. What I've been using my Assassin for is to get in (I run in....nothing bothers to stop me in PvE), use quick (4 second) recharging lead & off-hand attacks to quickly get to both my powerful dual attacks, and escape with Recall should I happen to draw aggro or if the monk's life starts fluxuating. I don't run around the battle waiting to strike against the AI. I pick my targets, use my daggers, and only escape when I need to. (EDIT: Lately, I've been using Shroud of Silence to take care of the mages....some of the new earth spells are freakin' deadly)

Needless to say, by the time the Warrior gets adrenaline built up, my combo is done and the warrior can take over to finish. Together, an Assassin and a warrior can maintain a pretty near 80-90% high damage spike over time on a target.

This is just one reason to have an Assassin in the group. As far as the actual "role" of the class on a whole, well, I try not to conform to the stereotypes of any class once I actually get the skills to do so. Only time will tell where both the new classes really shine. I will continue to disagree with those who say the class is broken or designed wrongly. I have been just as much a benefit to my groups as any melee class can be. I just need to keep unlocking skills and see where I can manage to break my build free of the norm

Phades · May 15, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beat_Go_Stick

I have been just as much a benefit to my groups as any melee class can be.

I dont have a problem with your summary, but i just thought this statement was a little out of place considering there is only one other melee class which is the warrior. I had to do a double take when i read it to make sure what you were not trying to say something else, which made me smile. I dont think anyone here is stating that they are unusable. Technically anything is usable with a user with enough skill, but i think the overal argument does default to overal use and efficientcy. This aspect is kinda hard to gauge, so its poked at from many different directions usually and typically lightly.

Laura Whitefox · May 16, 2006, 12:26 PM // 12:26

As far as i've seen lots of ppl say, that warriors could do what assassins do. I honestly dont think they can pull out as much dmg in a short time as an assassin can, but lets assume they r right. But still You dont see warriors doing it... If You take a warrior in pve he/she wont wait for others to take aggro, then sneak to the back lines and kill casters alone, coz warriors mostly just cant bring down a monk alone. the monk will heal that dmg out.

Before anyone gets it wrong, im not saying that an assassin is meant to rush into the backlines and kill anything on sight. When the battle starts wait, let the the enemy warriors go for their targets (make sure its not you) and run past them and get their casters. For example yesterday i killed a monk and a ranger boss single handedly in that convocation coop while the REST of the team killed some warriors and such. So saying that assassins are useless is just plain stupid. they are a new class that represents a new playstyle that the players have to figure for themselves. Its similar what we had some time ago with rangers. Most teams didnt pick me up, coz i was an "useless" ranger. then came those uw trapper teams, ranger spikes, barrage groups and it changed the ppl's idea of rangers.

I have to say i didnt like melee chars before. But i like the assassin. It takes more to be a good assassin then to be a warrior and go stand and take dmg in an armour that would save you from a nuclear strike. If You play an assassin like a warrior You'll die soon, plain and simple. But think about this: if assassins would have high def armour like warriors or rangers (yes rangers, coz they have additional 30 against elemental no matter what type of armour) to be able to tank, then now every1 would cry about assassins being overpowered coz of high dmg + high def rate.

the problem i think is that the assassin class is harder to play properly, than most other classes, just like a mesmer. But ppl like the idea of "being an assassin", but most of them expect a different playing experience and it makes them disappointed. Now they either quit playing it and say its junk, or carry on and dont learn from their mistakes and make the others - who actually try to imporve their techniques as an assassin - look crap/useless in others eyes.

And yes You are all right about most of the assassin playing the game currently are being suicidal. So there is no solution yet how to change the idea about assassins. I guess time will solve this as it did before with other classes. But if you try to change your attitude towards assassins a bit that would do quite nicely. I dont say that you should like them but at least dont close them out from a group just because they r A/x. 1 assassin cannot hurt, if he is that bad just dont res him ^^.

I have to say im not having problems with groups, but im in a lucky situation as i play with my friend. He comes with his MM so we have no problem with getting a team. We'll do the same with his assassin. I'll go MM or monk or ele or whatever. But i see lots of ppl spamming desperatley for a group and they dont get any. at some point there were someone who pmed us that if we take him, he will even pay us for it. We took him along and we didnt asked for any money ofc.

Jesus that ended up being a bit long... sorry ^^
Anyway just my 2 cents... ...You can flame me if You want...

Beat_Go_Stick · May 16, 2006, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

I dont have a problem with your summary, but i just thought this statement was a little out of place considering there is only one other melee class which is the warrior. I had to do a double take when i read it to make sure what you were not trying to say something else, which made me smile. I dont think anyone here is stating that they are unusable. Technically anything is usable with a user with enough skill, but i think the overal argument does default to overal use and efficientcy. This aspect is kinda hard to gauge, so its poked at from many different directions usually and typically lightly.

Heh, even one such as I have dents in my train tracks that cause my thought to derain now and again

I guess I should have said 'damage class' instead...I was mainly trying to make the distinction between classes that are more focussed on damage than control, if that makes any sense.

I think the thought that tends to be floating around is that the Assassin class is pointless. There is one thing that is certain and that is we will certainly find out. There's more Assassins than any other class at this point and a few of us are refining and learning before posting the "best" or "perfect" build...which is mainly what we see in the forums now.

Lol, I've always loved the people who post a build with the title BEST BUILD EVAR!!! less than a month after they start playing. We are all newbies when it comes to both Assassin and Ritualists...but not all of us are noobs